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	<title>Comments on: Going, Going, Gone &#8211; Auditors Still Not &quot;Concerned&quot; Enough About Client Viability</title>
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	<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/</link>
	<description>The Business of the Big 4 Audit Firms</description>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Going Concern Audit Opinions: Why So Few Warning Flares?</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-27543</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Going Concern Audit Opinions: Why So Few Warning Flares?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-27543</guid>
		<description>[...] what does this tell us about the value of the “going concern” opinion to warn shareholders and the markets of companies that are fragile, in a precarious state, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] what does this tell us about the value of the “going concern” opinion to warn shareholders and the markets of companies that are fragile, in a precarious state, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GM Better Off Bankrupt? My Opinion</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-2261</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GM Better Off Bankrupt? My Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-2261</guid>
		<description>[...] Today received a “going concern” opinion from its auditors, Deloitte. It’s been a long time coming. GM has been a problem child [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Today received a “going concern” opinion from its auditors, Deloitte. It’s been a long time coming. GM has been a problem child [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1764</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1764</guid>
		<description>Dennis- &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;No requirement to be a fortune teller on the part of the auditors.  Unfortunately. that&#039;s the erroneous conclusion that Ms McKenna would lead you to through her post.  You cannot, as Ms. McKenna is prone to do, look at last year&#039;s financial statements of a company that has gone under and say &quot;hey, look, this company went under less than a year after getting a clean opinion, therefore, the auditors&#039; going concern assessment MUST HAVE been wrong&quot;.  That is Monday morning quarterbacking, using 20-20 hindsight, whatever phrase you prefer.  Anyone can sit around after the proverbial S$&amp;! has hit the fan and point fingers saying &quot;you were wrong, you were wrong, and you were wrong&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The proper way to assess it is to say &quot;was information available to the auditor, when they signed their opinion, that would have led a REASONABLE PERSON to say that there was SUBSTANTIAL DOUBT as to whether that company would survive another 12 months?&quot;. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The distinction appears subtle, but really it&#039;s a very big distinction.  One view is saying &quot;What happens after you sign your opinion proves you were right or wrong&quot;.  The other says &quot;Did you make a reasonable decision given what you knew at that time?&quot; The accounting standards and literature point you to the 2nd view, Ms McKenna and others point you to the 1st view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis- </p>
<p>No requirement to be a fortune teller on the part of the auditors.  Unfortunately. that&#39;s the erroneous conclusion that Ms McKenna would lead you to through her post.  You cannot, as Ms. McKenna is prone to do, look at last year&#39;s financial statements of a company that has gone under and say &quot;hey, look, this company went under less than a year after getting a clean opinion, therefore, the auditors&#39; going concern assessment MUST HAVE been wrong&quot;.  That is Monday morning quarterbacking, using 20-20 hindsight, whatever phrase you prefer.  Anyone can sit around after the proverbial S$&amp;! has hit the fan and point fingers saying &quot;you were wrong, you were wrong, and you were wrong&quot;</p>
<p>The proper way to assess it is to say &quot;was information available to the auditor, when they signed their opinion, that would have led a REASONABLE PERSON to say that there was SUBSTANTIAL DOUBT as to whether that company would survive another 12 months?&quot;. </p>
<p>The distinction appears subtle, but really it&#39;s a very big distinction.  One view is saying &quot;What happens after you sign your opinion proves you were right or wrong&quot;.  The other says &quot;Did you make a reasonable decision given what you knew at that time?&quot; The accounting standards and literature point you to the 2nd view, Ms McKenna and others point you to the 1st view.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Howlett</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1760</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Howlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1760</guid>
		<description>Have you noticed the glaring logical flaw in this: &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;The auditor has a responsibility to evaluate whether there is a substantial doubt about the company&#039;s ability to continue as a going concern for a reasonable period of time, not to exceed one year beyond the date of the financial statements being audited. The auditor&#039;s evaluation is based on his or her knowledge of relevant conditions and events that exist at or have occurred prior to the date of the auditor&#039;s report.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The timing matter creates all sorts of problems - not least is the apparent requirement to be a crystal ball gazer - at the time of signing the report.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you noticed the glaring logical flaw in this: </p>
<p>&#8220;The auditor has a responsibility to evaluate whether there is a substantial doubt about the company&#8217;s ability to continue as a going concern for a reasonable period of time, not to exceed one year beyond the date of the financial statements being audited. The auditor&#8217;s evaluation is based on his or her knowledge of relevant conditions and events that exist at or have occurred prior to the date of the auditor&#8217;s report.&#8221;</p>
<p>The timing matter creates all sorts of problems &#8211; not least is the apparent requirement to be a crystal ball gazer &#8211; at the time of signing the report.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1759</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1759</guid>
		<description>JR -- love your post.  put my thoughts to words!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JR &#8212; love your post.  put my thoughts to words!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1758</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1758</guid>
		<description>I think its more complicated than a reluctance to &quot;kill the geese laying golden eggs.&quot;  It&#039;s more systemic - the whole banking system was at risk, but aside from a very few wholly rotten eggs, every business in the industry was subject to the same risks and market forces (and to further complicate things, GAAP, as net asset valuations are not always based on measurable facts, but assumptions, econometric models, mark-to-market accounting, etc., all allowable under GAAP and often difficult to &quot;audit&quot; from a GAAS perspective).  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A going concern opinion for any of the large instititions with that much risk and paper accounting would likely have brought the entire industry down earlier - and to your point maybe this is what should have happened?   But which accounting firm is going to single out a specific client based on the same systemic risks that affect everyone else?  It would have to be an all or nothing approach - not something any one firm could accomplish alone.  This is supposedly why we have regulators, not auditors.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--JR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its more complicated than a reluctance to &#8220;kill the geese laying golden eggs.&#8221;  It&#8217;s more systemic &#8211; the whole banking system was at risk, but aside from a very few wholly rotten eggs, every business in the industry was subject to the same risks and market forces (and to further complicate things, GAAP, as net asset valuations are not always based on measurable facts, but assumptions, econometric models, mark-to-market accounting, etc., all allowable under GAAP and often difficult to &#8220;audit&#8221; from a GAAS perspective).  </p>
<p>A going concern opinion for any of the large instititions with that much risk and paper accounting would likely have brought the entire industry down earlier &#8211; and to your point maybe this is what should have happened?   But which accounting firm is going to single out a specific client based on the same systemic risks that affect everyone else?  It would have to be an all or nothing approach &#8211; not something any one firm could accomplish alone.  This is supposedly why we have regulators, not auditors.</p>
<p>&#8211;JR</p>
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		<title>By: Francine McKenna</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1757</link>
		<dc:creator>Francine McKenna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1757</guid>
		<description>@ClownCollege&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The clear forseeability of the crisis faced by these major institutions is my personal opinion.  My support for this contention is the found in the substance of numerous blog posts about all of the major players and about the subprime issues very early in the game.  Some were writing even earlier about the housing bubble and its potential impact on the economy and on banks and others that were heavily exposed.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Look at any of my posts regarding Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Lehman, GM, GE/GMAC, and the mortgage lenders like New Century, Countrywide, Beezer and the ratings agencies.  They started in early 2007. If I knew, surely those in the trenches certifying the books knew that a whole industry was at substantial risk?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One of the first mentions of the lack of &quot;going concern &quot; opinions in the blog was in a link to an article by Jonathan Weil re Deloitte and American Home Mortgage in August of 2007.  I&#039;m not alone here in my opinion that Big 4 are reluctant to kill the geese laying golden eggs for them like Bear Stearns and Lehman until pushed to the brink. It&#039;s why the PCAOB had to remind them of it. &lt;br/&gt;http://www.retheauditors.com/2007/08/bloombergs-jonathan-weil-is-on-roll.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ClownCollege</p>
<p>The clear forseeability of the crisis faced by these major institutions is my personal opinion.  My support for this contention is the found in the substance of numerous blog posts about all of the major players and about the subprime issues very early in the game.  Some were writing even earlier about the housing bubble and its potential impact on the economy and on banks and others that were heavily exposed.</p>
<p>Look at any of my posts regarding Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Lehman, GM, GE/GMAC, and the mortgage lenders like New Century, Countrywide, Beezer and the ratings agencies.  They started in early 2007. If I knew, surely those in the trenches certifying the books knew that a whole industry was at substantial risk?</p>
<p>One of the first mentions of the lack of &#8220;going concern &#8221; opinions in the blog was in a link to an article by Jonathan Weil re Deloitte and American Home Mortgage in August of 2007.  I&#8217;m not alone here in my opinion that Big 4 are reluctant to kill the geese laying golden eggs for them like Bear Stearns and Lehman until pushed to the brink. It&#8217;s why the PCAOB had to remind them of it. <br /><a href="http://www.retheauditors.com/2007/08/bloombergs-jonathan-weil-is-on-roll.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.retheauditors.com/2007/08/bloombergs-jonathan-weil-is-on-roll.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: ClownCollege</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1756</link>
		<dc:creator>ClownCollege</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1756</guid>
		<description>&quot;The worst of the crisis was clearly anticipated, clearly foreseeable, and readily acknowledgeable by managements from a GAAP disclosure perspective and from their auditors from the perspective of a &quot;professional&quot; evaluation of the verisimilitude of managements&#039; disclosures as of December 31, 2008.  The financial crisis was not sudden, it just accelerated quickly once the match, the Lehman failure, was lit.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m hoping you will post your support for these statements.  Perhaps you could point us to a single article projecting the failure of the banking system that was published prior to March of 2008, when all the banks would have issued their 10-Ks by?  It&#039;s difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that the auditors &quot;should have known&quot; there was substantial doubt as to the ability of these long-lived institutions to survive the upcoming year.  I&#039;m hoping you can point to someone who, at the time the auditors were making their assessment, had, in fact, reached the conclusion that the failure of these banks was imminent.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I do note that the link you provided to your own February 2008 blog post did not mention going concern, nor did any of the related posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The worst of the crisis was clearly anticipated, clearly foreseeable, and readily acknowledgeable by managements from a GAAP disclosure perspective and from their auditors from the perspective of a &#8220;professional&#8221; evaluation of the verisimilitude of managements&#8217; disclosures as of December 31, 2008.  The financial crisis was not sudden, it just accelerated quickly once the match, the Lehman failure, was lit.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m hoping you will post your support for these statements.  Perhaps you could point us to a single article projecting the failure of the banking system that was published prior to March of 2008, when all the banks would have issued their 10-Ks by?  It&#8217;s difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that the auditors &#8220;should have known&#8221; there was substantial doubt as to the ability of these long-lived institutions to survive the upcoming year.  I&#8217;m hoping you can point to someone who, at the time the auditors were making their assessment, had, in fact, reached the conclusion that the failure of these banks was imminent.  </p>
<p>I do note that the link you provided to your own February 2008 blog post did not mention going concern, nor did any of the related posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Francine McKenna</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1755</link>
		<dc:creator>Francine McKenna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1755</guid>
		<description>@Anon 10:44:00 Thanks for catching my error.  Meant 12/31/07.  Will correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anon 10:44:00 Thanks for catching my error.  Meant 12/31/07.  Will correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/04/going-going-gone-auditors-still-not-concerned-enough-about-client-viability/comment-page-1/#comment-1754</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=861#comment-1754</guid>
		<description>Francine, you state:  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Sorry, Mike.  I think your clients will need a stronger argument in their defense, given the fact that December 31, 2008 financial statements had no &quot;going concern&quot; qualifications and the worst of the crisis was soon to come.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t follow your argument, since no company, to my knowledge, has issued their 12/31/08 FS, considering that was four days ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francine, you state:  </p>
<p>&#8220;Sorry, Mike.  I think your clients will need a stronger argument in their defense, given the fact that December 31, 2008 financial statements had no &#8220;going concern&#8221; qualifications and the worst of the crisis was soon to come.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t follow your argument, since no company, to my knowledge, has issued their 12/31/08 FS, considering that was four days ago.</p>
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