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	<title>Comments on: PwC and Satyam &#8211; Another Fine Mess You&#8217;ve Gotten Yourself Into</title>
	<atom:link href="http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/</link>
	<description>The Business of the Big 4 Audit Firms</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:36:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Suspension of Disbelief in God vs. Professional Skepticism &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-90174</link>
		<dc:creator>Suspension of Disbelief in God vs. Professional Skepticism &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-90174</guid>
		<description>[...] But is this how everything in life works? Well, as I&#8217;ve studied accounting, there are a few things that have been drummed over and over. Suspension of disbelief isn&#8217;t one of them. Rather, professional skepticism is tremendous, and when auditors aren&#8217;t skeptical enough, bad things happen. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] But is this how everything in life works? Well, as I&#8217;ve studied accounting, there are a few things that have been drummed over and over. Suspension of disbelief isn&#8217;t one of them. Rather, professional skepticism is tremendous, and when auditors aren&#8217;t skeptical enough, bad things happen. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; They Weren&#8217;t There: Auditors And The Financial Crisis</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-61325</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; They Weren&#8217;t There: Auditors And The Financial Crisis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-61325</guid>
		<description>[...] the other &#8220;expectations gap&#8221; we face as journalists when trying to add an independent, objective, and inevitably critical voice [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the other &#8220;expectations gap&#8221; we face as journalists when trying to add an independent, objective, and inevitably critical voice [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Re: Moral Discipline, by Elder Christofferson &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-33662</link>
		<dc:creator>Re: Moral Discipline, by Elder Christofferson &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-33662</guid>
		<description>[...] But hold on! Let&#8217;s remember something about history. Auditors didn&#8217;t even always test for internal controls&#8230;and until the big scandals, they didn&#8217;t even believe they had a responsibility to actively detect for fraud. Sometimes, the auditors still don&#8217;t. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] But hold on! Let&#8217;s remember something about history. Auditors didn&#8217;t even always test for internal controls&#8230;and until the big scandals, they didn&#8217;t even believe they had a responsibility to actively detect for fraud. Sometimes, the auditors still don&#8217;t. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Regulation Topic: How not to get sued &#124; Accounting Elf</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-27936</link>
		<dc:creator>Regulation Topic: How not to get sued &#124; Accounting Elf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-27936</guid>
		<description>[...] interesting reading to relate Regulation studying to the real world is this article on Re: The Auditors that addresses a case faced by PWC and the auditor&#8217;s responsibility to find fraud under the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] interesting reading to relate Regulation studying to the real world is this article on Re: The Auditors that addresses a case faced by PWC and the auditor&#8217;s responsibility to find fraud under the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; McKenna Quoted In The Guardian</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9466</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; McKenna Quoted In The Guardian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-9466</guid>
		<description>[...] the link to my posts on PwC/Satyam, go here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the link to my posts on PwC/Satyam, go here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Plot Thickens - Price Waterhouse India Plausibly Culpable</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-3889</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Plot Thickens - Price Waterhouse India Plausibly Culpable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-3889</guid>
		<description>[...] But the two at different points of time did not make any change in their audit plans.&#8221;   Earlier reports had PricewaterhouseCoopers International Chairman Sam Di Piazza spending much time in India as well [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] But the two at different points of time did not make any change in their audit plans.&#8221;   Earlier reports had PricewaterhouseCoopers International Chairman Sam Di Piazza spending much time in India as well [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr PL Joshi</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-3081</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr PL Joshi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-3081</guid>
		<description>I have a simple question. 
 As per  ICAI&#039;s regualtions, foreign audit firms like E&amp;Y, PWC , KPMG, and D &amp; T are not allowed to practice auditing work in India .i.e. none of them can
be appointed as a statutory auditors of a company by shareholders in their annual general meeting.   In order to act as a statutory auditor, such firms should 
be registered with ICAI and none of them are registered with the ICAI.  These firms are just affiliates in India  and conduct consultancy services. They perform
audit  work on behalf of local audit firms who have licenses from ICAI.  This  means that  these foregin firms outsource their auditing services. It also means that the foreign audit firms do not  have  power in India  to  attest  the financial statements. 

If the above is the case,  what  are the legal liabiliies of  PWC  in case of Satyam&#039;s frauds?  What action the government or ICAI can take against such firms 
who do not have  the attestion power for financial statements.? The foreign audit firms recruit  Indian CAs who are  the registered members with  ICAI. If any of its member has conducted audit for  Satyam, then the  action may be taken against the  CA s who are  the members of ICAI. It  means  that the punishment may be only to suspend their license for a period of  5 years.  So in  Satyam case, the  legal onus  is with the individual  CAs who are the employees of  PWC India and  it will not be easy to take any legal action againt PWC, if upon investigation it is found that auditors have shown professional negligence while conducting the  audit or were a part of the fraud.  In such a case PWC will lose its reputation and I am afraid that this case  will affect its global operations. 

Any one can clarify the above  position for the benefits of several readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a simple question.<br />
 As per  ICAI&#8217;s regualtions, foreign audit firms like E&amp;Y, PWC , KPMG, and D &amp; T are not allowed to practice auditing work in India .i.e. none of them can<br />
be appointed as a statutory auditors of a company by shareholders in their annual general meeting.   In order to act as a statutory auditor, such firms should<br />
be registered with ICAI and none of them are registered with the ICAI.  These firms are just affiliates in India  and conduct consultancy services. They perform<br />
audit  work on behalf of local audit firms who have licenses from ICAI.  This  means that  these foregin firms outsource their auditing services. It also means that the foreign audit firms do not  have  power in India  to  attest  the financial statements. </p>
<p>If the above is the case,  what  are the legal liabiliies of  PWC  in case of Satyam&#8217;s frauds?  What action the government or ICAI can take against such firms<br />
who do not have  the attestion power for financial statements.? The foreign audit firms recruit  Indian CAs who are  the registered members with  ICAI. If any of its member has conducted audit for  Satyam, then the  action may be taken against the  CA s who are  the members of ICAI. It  means  that the punishment may be only to suspend their license for a period of  5 years.  So in  Satyam case, the  legal onus  is with the individual  CAs who are the employees of  PWC India and  it will not be easy to take any legal action againt PWC, if upon investigation it is found that auditors have shown professional negligence while conducting the  audit or were a part of the fraud.  In such a case PWC will lose its reputation and I am afraid that this case  will affect its global operations. </p>
<p>Any one can clarify the above  position for the benefits of several readers.</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; PricewaterhouseCoopers Case Is A Game Changer</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2822</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; PricewaterhouseCoopers Case Is A Game Changer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-2822</guid>
		<description>[...] less sanguine. Who knows? If a case against PricewaterhouseCoopers global firm for Satyam rolls in soon too, the risk of losing at trial in two Big 4 cases - and Satyam will go to trial - [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] less sanguine. Who knows? If a case against PricewaterhouseCoopers global firm for Satyam rolls in soon too, the risk of losing at trial in two Big 4 cases &#8211; and Satyam will go to trial &#8211; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; If The President Does It, It&#8217;s Not Illegal&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2124</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; If The President Does It, It&#8217;s Not Illegal&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-2124</guid>
		<description>[...] the below audit &#8220;plane crashes&#8221; you have so clearly documented:     Stanford Satyam Madoff Banco Espiritu Santo and BDO Seidman  Lehman and Ernst &amp; Young,   Deloitte and Bear [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the below audit &#8220;plane crashes&#8221; you have so clearly documented:     Stanford Satyam Madoff Banco Espiritu Santo and BDO Seidman  Lehman and Ernst &amp; Young,   Deloitte and Bear [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/01/26/pwc-and-satyam-another-fine-mess-youve-gotten-yourself-into-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1935</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://76.12.174.187/?p=872#comment-1935</guid>
		<description>Boriah, Ms. McKenna does not need me to defend her views, but oversimplify them as a push to get rid of the Big 4, and then to conflate that oversimplification with a excessive bias misses her points, which if you read the blog in its entirety are manifest. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So permit me to give my own spin on this. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Big 4 has a business model that is entirely too risky to make any common sense.  And the way they run the firms makes the model even riskier, because compensation and personnel decisions would have to be structured to prioritize delivery excellence and subject matter expertise to some extent over business development and utilization. This is not a rant against aggressive business development and utilization and other such goals as I think that high performance business cultures need those kind of measurements; rather it is a reminder that a business with a precipitous return vs. risk model that fails to structure its affairs around this key difference does so at its extreme peril. Put another way, the attest and audit business is indeed special and different in its risks and demands and public obligation, and they need to do something different than they now are doing, likely radically so. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How is it that anyone cannot believe the business model is a Titanic waiting to happen?  Fees, while generally good in terms of putting money in partner&#039;s pockets at the end of each year (but not for a rainy day), and giving many a decent wage in a difficult and challenging profession, are ridiculously low when measured against the litigation liability that looms.  Assume that one of these disasters is large enough (and with this economy, there will be some), and that a plaintiff succeeds in getting past summary judgment.  The hindsight factor kicks in - making whatever conduct the auditors engaged in appear worse in context than it probably was - and just watch what kind of havoc would wreak with a billion (or worse) kind of judgment from a jury.  Merely posting a bond for an appeal would be a financially stressful thing, and imagine if 2-3 such actions were infecting a firm at the same time.  These risks are real, could take any one of these firms under or in severe distress, and I find it humorous that instead of substantive responses to Francine&#039;s points one reads posts here about how the blog material is too long or how it is too biased to reach large readership levels.  It as if what she is pointing out is too uncomfortable to read.  But that is the point, isn&#039;t it?  If there are not concrete, plausible responses to her concerns then what is reinforced is a perception that she is spot on.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And to add the disclaimer to avoid bias, I might add that I do find Big 4 professionals as a group one of the finer elements of human capital in the business world - well trained and professional and frankly, invaluable assets.  But that is just the reason we want to have these people working in a reformed structure that engages in better risk management, does better work, protect the public more effectively, and so on.  Sometimes that takes tough talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boriah, Ms. McKenna does not need me to defend her views, but oversimplify them as a push to get rid of the Big 4, and then to conflate that oversimplification with a excessive bias misses her points, which if you read the blog in its entirety are manifest. </p>
<p>So permit me to give my own spin on this. </p>
<p>The Big 4 has a business model that is entirely too risky to make any common sense.  And the way they run the firms makes the model even riskier, because compensation and personnel decisions would have to be structured to prioritize delivery excellence and subject matter expertise to some extent over business development and utilization. This is not a rant against aggressive business development and utilization and other such goals as I think that high performance business cultures need those kind of measurements; rather it is a reminder that a business with a precipitous return vs. risk model that fails to structure its affairs around this key difference does so at its extreme peril. Put another way, the attest and audit business is indeed special and different in its risks and demands and public obligation, and they need to do something different than they now are doing, likely radically so. </p>
<p>How is it that anyone cannot believe the business model is a Titanic waiting to happen?  Fees, while generally good in terms of putting money in partner&#8217;s pockets at the end of each year (but not for a rainy day), and giving many a decent wage in a difficult and challenging profession, are ridiculously low when measured against the litigation liability that looms.  Assume that one of these disasters is large enough (and with this economy, there will be some), and that a plaintiff succeeds in getting past summary judgment.  The hindsight factor kicks in &#8211; making whatever conduct the auditors engaged in appear worse in context than it probably was &#8211; and just watch what kind of havoc would wreak with a billion (or worse) kind of judgment from a jury.  Merely posting a bond for an appeal would be a financially stressful thing, and imagine if 2-3 such actions were infecting a firm at the same time.  These risks are real, could take any one of these firms under or in severe distress, and I find it humorous that instead of substantive responses to Francine&#8217;s points one reads posts here about how the blog material is too long or how it is too biased to reach large readership levels.  It as if what she is pointing out is too uncomfortable to read.  But that is the point, isn&#8217;t it?  If there are not concrete, plausible responses to her concerns then what is reinforced is a perception that she is spot on.  </p>
<p>And to add the disclaimer to avoid bias, I might add that I do find Big 4 professionals as a group one of the finer elements of human capital in the business world &#8211; well trained and professional and frankly, invaluable assets.  But that is just the reason we want to have these people working in a reformed structure that engages in better risk management, does better work, protect the public more effectively, and so on.  Sometimes that takes tough talk.</p>
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