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	<title>Comments on: Huron Consulting:  Go On, Take The Money And Run</title>
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	<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/</link>
	<description>The Business of the Big 4 Audit Firms</description>
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		<title>By: Too Bad For Them...</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-28887</link>
		<dc:creator>Too Bad For Them...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-28887</guid>
		<description>I am not surprised.  These jackals are little better than ambulance chasers.  I worked for them and everyone I met was either stupid, a douchebag or both.  Congrats--now get real jobs where you don&#039;t extort clients out of $180/hr for retarded advice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not surprised.  These jackals are little better than ambulance chasers.  I worked for them and everyone I met was either stupid, a douchebag or both.  Congrats&#8211;now get real jobs where you don&#8217;t extort clients out of $180/hr for retarded advice.</p>
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		<title>By: Problèmes comptables pour une firme de consultation spécialisée dans la résolution de problèmes comptables? &#124; Hélène Bouchard M.Fisc., CGA, CFE</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-12818</link>
		<dc:creator>Problèmes comptables pour une firme de consultation spécialisée dans la résolution de problèmes comptables? &#124; Hélène Bouchard M.Fisc., CGA, CFE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 17:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-12818</guid>
		<description>[...] the warnings signs and red flags were there. Not only had there been independent analysts who sounded alarms, but their auditors, PwC are in there all the time, including providing due diligence for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the warnings signs and red flags were there. Not only had there been independent analysts who sounded alarms, but their auditors, PwC are in there all the time, including providing due diligence for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Rezko</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-12421</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Rezko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 04:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-12421</guid>
		<description>Fine, but where does Occam&#039;s Razor lead us? To the fact that we &quot;can&#039;t&quot; detect or deter fraud? Then we&#039;re collecting an awful lot of money to talk up services we can&#039;t actually provide.

Anon #5, suppose I&#039;m an audit committee chair, and here&#039;s my question - why the heck am I paying a B4 millions of dollars in fees for audit services which provide not so much as an attempt to uncover issues like those at Huron? Yes, I understand that few smoking guns are uncovered directly by auditors, and we love to talk about how a fraudster who really wants to put one over on the auditors can do so. But the point I&#039;m making, and that I interpret from many of FM&#039;s posts, is that we don&#039;t see even the professional skepticism or basic fraud brainstorming put into practice. The basic questions that should be asked, and the red flags that should wave in front of us, go unnoticed.

If you come back and say we still cannot detect any of these fraudulent activites, my response is that we shouldn&#039;t propose fees to audit committees that imply we&#039;re capable of doing so. (Of course, we also give going concernes to companies like GM three years too late, but I digress.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine, but where does Occam&#8217;s Razor lead us? To the fact that we &#8220;can&#8217;t&#8221; detect or deter fraud? Then we&#8217;re collecting an awful lot of money to talk up services we can&#8217;t actually provide.</p>
<p>Anon #5, suppose I&#8217;m an audit committee chair, and here&#8217;s my question &#8211; why the heck am I paying a B4 millions of dollars in fees for audit services which provide not so much as an attempt to uncover issues like those at Huron? Yes, I understand that few smoking guns are uncovered directly by auditors, and we love to talk about how a fraudster who really wants to put one over on the auditors can do so. But the point I&#8217;m making, and that I interpret from many of FM&#8217;s posts, is that we don&#8217;t see even the professional skepticism or basic fraud brainstorming put into practice. The basic questions that should be asked, and the red flags that should wave in front of us, go unnoticed.</p>
<p>If you come back and say we still cannot detect any of these fraudulent activites, my response is that we shouldn&#8217;t propose fees to audit committees that imply we&#8217;re capable of doing so. (Of course, we also give going concernes to companies like GM three years too late, but I digress.)</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-12268</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-12268</guid>
		<description>@6 fm

Conspiracy theories, while interesting and fun to read about, are very rarely true.  Occam&#039;s razor, the simplest explanation is most often true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@6 fm</p>
<p>Conspiracy theories, while interesting and fun to read about, are very rarely true.  Occam&#8217;s razor, the simplest explanation is most often true.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenacious Truman</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11957</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenacious Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11957</guid>
		<description>FM @ 12,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply (when are you not thoughtful?).  But I wasn&#039;t really thinking about a private partnership.  We know that&#039;s not the way to go if the number of partners exceeds, say, 5.  

I&#039;m not an expert in corporate structure but I would have thought two or three times before going public with this business.  Maybe the VCs gave them no choice, I don&#039;t know.  We do know (because we follow your Twitter feed) that the original partners gave away a huge amount of their equity to the VCs, likely so as to generate sufficient working capital to get the business going.  The VCs were almost certainly in the driver&#039;s seat when it came to deciding whether or not to go public.

-- Tenacious T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FM @ 12,</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughtful reply (when are you not thoughtful?).  But I wasn&#8217;t really thinking about a private partnership.  We know that&#8217;s not the way to go if the number of partners exceeds, say, 5.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an expert in corporate structure but I would have thought two or three times before going public with this business.  Maybe the VCs gave them no choice, I don&#8217;t know.  We do know (because we follow your Twitter feed) that the original partners gave away a huge amount of their equity to the VCs, likely so as to generate sufficient working capital to get the business going.  The VCs were almost certainly in the driver&#8217;s seat when it came to deciding whether or not to go public.</p>
<p>&#8211; Tenacious T.</p>
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		<title>By: Sceptical</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11944</link>
		<dc:creator>Sceptical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11944</guid>
		<description>Greed is good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greed is good.</p>
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		<title>By: fm</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11864</link>
		<dc:creator>fm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11864</guid>
		<description>@Tenacious Truman

re: The question of why go public...

Unfortunately, many companies, and rather small ones  at that, go public for only one reason - to raise money to pay off investors or legacy owners who want an exit strategy.  I once took a look at the Crain&#039;s Chicago Business List of Top Public Companies in the Chicago area.  There are, of course, the big names like Boeing, Sara Lee, Kraft, Motorola, and CNA.  But there are a bucketload of companies with revenues under $250 million.  That&#039;s just nuts.  And they are the ones who complain about compliance costs and have yet to be put under requirements of Sarbanes-Oxley.  Yet they are taking public investor money and acting like big muckety-mucks as &quot;public&quot; company CEOs and CFOs.  Ridiculous. It&#039;s an ego and greed trip that serves no one but a handful of insiders and the folks who make the deals happen. Most are not really ready for the big time and are wasting everyone&#039;s time and money playing the game for ego&#039;s sake. 

That being said, if they issue public debt or have a big line of credit from a bank, they need a good audit..  But that can be bought.

Should Huron have gone public? Well, as a private professional services firm, partnership or not, they may have had capital restrictions and, of course, the inability to easily shift wealth to only a few unless they restricted the true equity partner ranks to only a few.  Those poor former AA partners who are now wondering what they did to deserve this calamity twice should have maybe thought twice about equity in any form...  But as you said and as we have seen with the audit firms, they should have known that a private partnership also can pretty well hide their dirty laundry from the public if needed.
Francine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tenacious Truman</p>
<p>re: The question of why go public&#8230;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, many companies, and rather small ones  at that, go public for only one reason &#8211; to raise money to pay off investors or legacy owners who want an exit strategy.  I once took a look at the Crain&#8217;s Chicago Business List of Top Public Companies in the Chicago area.  There are, of course, the big names like Boeing, Sara Lee, Kraft, Motorola, and CNA.  But there are a bucketload of companies with revenues under $250 million.  That&#8217;s just nuts.  And they are the ones who complain about compliance costs and have yet to be put under requirements of Sarbanes-Oxley.  Yet they are taking public investor money and acting like big muckety-mucks as &#8220;public&#8221; company CEOs and CFOs.  Ridiculous. It&#8217;s an ego and greed trip that serves no one but a handful of insiders and the folks who make the deals happen. Most are not really ready for the big time and are wasting everyone&#8217;s time and money playing the game for ego&#8217;s sake. </p>
<p>That being said, if they issue public debt or have a big line of credit from a bank, they need a good audit..  But that can be bought.</p>
<p>Should Huron have gone public? Well, as a private professional services firm, partnership or not, they may have had capital restrictions and, of course, the inability to easily shift wealth to only a few unless they restricted the true equity partner ranks to only a few.  Those poor former AA partners who are now wondering what they did to deserve this calamity twice should have maybe thought twice about equity in any form&#8230;  But as you said and as we have seen with the audit firms, they should have known that a private partnership also can pretty well hide their dirty laundry from the public if needed.<br />
Francine</p>
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		<title>By: Tenacious Truman</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11857</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenacious Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11857</guid>
		<description>Chicago Accountant @ 3

It may be too soon to float the &quot;f&quot; word on this one.  

Near as I can figure, ater reading the WSJ article on this, was that earn-out payments associated with acquisitions were partially redisitributed to non-owners.  The non-owners who received the redistributions were employees of Huron, who had come on board with the acquired entities.  WSJ characterizes the redistributions as being completely legal and not &quot;kick-backs&quot; in any sense of the term.  I assume this is so because nobody in a position to determine the value of the earn-out payments received any part of the redistribution.  It may be possible that Huron senior management was unaware of these redistributions.  The article posits that the transactions were misrecorded and should have been recorded as &quot;noncash operating expenses&quot;.  Not sure how they were recorded or even if they were recorded at all, since the CAO, CFO and CEO may have been unaware of them.

I&#039;m not here to defend Huron, just to try to keep this FUBAR into perspective.  Just because the infamous name of Andersen is being bandied about is no reason to convict anybody before the facts are outed.

Finally, let me offer this question.  Why was this firm ever taken public?  (Yes, I know, to pay off the VCs.  But that&#039;s not my real question.)  How much would the costs of SOX compliance take away from the bottom line, wheras if Huron was a private business compliance costs would have been minimal. Certainly, the impact of this fiasco on the Huron brand would have been dramatically less, had the firm been private instead of publicy traded.  Other companies have done the cost/benefit analysis and stayed private or have even gone from public to private (example: ARAMARK).  Being public would seem to carry with it costs that would outweigh the benefits, at least in this outsider&#039;s view of Huron.

-- Tenacious T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chicago Accountant @ 3</p>
<p>It may be too soon to float the &#8220;f&#8221; word on this one.  </p>
<p>Near as I can figure, ater reading the WSJ article on this, was that earn-out payments associated with acquisitions were partially redisitributed to non-owners.  The non-owners who received the redistributions were employees of Huron, who had come on board with the acquired entities.  WSJ characterizes the redistributions as being completely legal and not &#8220;kick-backs&#8221; in any sense of the term.  I assume this is so because nobody in a position to determine the value of the earn-out payments received any part of the redistribution.  It may be possible that Huron senior management was unaware of these redistributions.  The article posits that the transactions were misrecorded and should have been recorded as &#8220;noncash operating expenses&#8221;.  Not sure how they were recorded or even if they were recorded at all, since the CAO, CFO and CEO may have been unaware of them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not here to defend Huron, just to try to keep this FUBAR into perspective.  Just because the infamous name of Andersen is being bandied about is no reason to convict anybody before the facts are outed.</p>
<p>Finally, let me offer this question.  Why was this firm ever taken public?  (Yes, I know, to pay off the VCs.  But that&#8217;s not my real question.)  How much would the costs of SOX compliance take away from the bottom line, wheras if Huron was a private business compliance costs would have been minimal. Certainly, the impact of this fiasco on the Huron brand would have been dramatically less, had the firm been private instead of publicy traded.  Other companies have done the cost/benefit analysis and stayed private or have even gone from public to private (example: ARAMARK).  Being public would seem to carry with it costs that would outweigh the benefits, at least in this outsider&#8217;s view of Huron.</p>
<p>&#8211; Tenacious T.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Thompson</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11828</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11828</guid>
		<description>Condolences to the employees and shareholders. Security Class Action Estimate Service has done an analysis of the odds for what will happen to the share price of Huron. Check it out at Security Class Action Estimate Service on Facebook. It&#039;s free.

For the accountants and auditors who wonder why it costs you a bundle for professional liability coverage...now you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Condolences to the employees and shareholders. Security Class Action Estimate Service has done an analysis of the odds for what will happen to the share price of Huron. Check it out at Security Class Action Estimate Service on Facebook. It&#8217;s free.</p>
<p>For the accountants and auditors who wonder why it costs you a bundle for professional liability coverage&#8230;now you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Wednesday links: stretched sentiment Abnormal Returns</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2009/08/04/huron-consulting-go-on-take-the-money-and-run/comment-page-1/#comment-11819</link>
		<dc:creator>Wednesday links: stretched sentiment Abnormal Returns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=2668#comment-11819</guid>
		<description>[...] looks like old Arthur Andersen methods took hold over at Huron Consulting (HURN).  (re:  The Auditors, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] looks like old Arthur Andersen methods took hold over at Huron Consulting (HURN).  (re:  The Auditors, [...]</p>
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