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	<title>Comments on: Send Lawyers, Guns And Money&#8230; The Big 4 And Their Litigation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/</link>
	<description>The Business of the Big 4 Audit Firms</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:35:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; HP, Hurd, Deloitte and Tone At The Top</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-124269</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; HP, Hurd, Deloitte and Tone At The Top</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-124269</guid>
		<description>[...] may have been designed effectively, those controls surely did not, in the Flanagan case and the hundreds of other examples of non-compliance cited by the PCAOB, operate effectively.  Deloitte did not discover Flanagan&#8217;s sins.  FINRA [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] may have been designed effectively, those controls surely did not, in the Flanagan case and the hundreds of other examples of non-compliance cited by the PCAOB, operate effectively.  Deloitte did not discover Flanagan&#8217;s sins.  FINRA [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Auditors Say Jump&#8230; New &#8220;Appeals&#8221; Process Will Impede Timely PCAOB Inspection Reports</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-123735</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Auditors Say Jump&#8230; New &#8220;Appeals&#8221; Process Will Impede Timely PCAOB Inspection Reports</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-123735</guid>
		<description>[...] seriously, and don’t significantly change their processes as a result. In some cases they publicly embarrassed the PCAOB by openly disagreeing with [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seriously, and don’t significantly change their processes as a result. In some cases they publicly embarrassed the PCAOB by openly disagreeing with [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Corporate &#38; Securities Law Community &#124; LexisNexis</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-109188</link>
		<dc:creator>Corporate &#38; Securities Law Community &#124; LexisNexis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 18:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-109188</guid>
		<description>[...] have a rant worthy of Francine McKenna on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have a rant worthy of Francine McKenna on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Weekend Book Review: Money for Nothing &#124; Compliance Building</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-108714</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekend Book Review: Money for Nothing &#124; Compliance Building</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 11:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-108714</guid>
		<description>[...] have a rant worthy of Francine McKenna on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have a rant worthy of Francine McKenna on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; For The Auditors, Nothing&#8217;s Over Until It&#8217;s Over: Or Is It?</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-94988</link>
		<dc:creator>re: The Auditors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; For The Auditors, Nothing&#8217;s Over Until It&#8217;s Over: Or Is It?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-94988</guid>
		<description>[...] litigation already on the docket.  They are named in lawsuits related to the acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America and the failure of Bear Stearns, as well as the bankruptcy of Washington [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] litigation already on the docket.  They are named in lawsuits related to the acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America and the failure of Bear Stearns, as well as the bankruptcy of Washington [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tenacious Truman</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-92898</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenacious Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-92898</guid>
		<description>Jack Reacher --

Being a CPA is supposed to mean something more than being a hired gun, where the level of assurance depends on the fees the client is paying.  There are some professional standards involved, as well as at least one Supreme Court case that opined that auditors of public companies have a higher duty than simply giving the kind of opinion the client deserves, based on engagement fees.  In fact, that same Supreme Court opinion (U.S. v. Arthur Young) stated that the real client was the shareholders, not management.

Sorry the Army Military Police thing didn&#039;t work out for you.

-- Tenacious T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack Reacher &#8211;</p>
<p>Being a CPA is supposed to mean something more than being a hired gun, where the level of assurance depends on the fees the client is paying.  There are some professional standards involved, as well as at least one Supreme Court case that opined that auditors of public companies have a higher duty than simply giving the kind of opinion the client deserves, based on engagement fees.  In fact, that same Supreme Court opinion (U.S. v. Arthur Young) stated that the real client was the shareholders, not management.</p>
<p>Sorry the Army Military Police thing didn&#8217;t work out for you.</p>
<p>&#8211; Tenacious T.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Reacher</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-92435</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Reacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 01:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-92435</guid>
		<description>Of course you are only going to get what you pay for.  The Firms work by the hour.  The client pays for a certain number of hours and if the client is a cheapskate then you arent going to get many hours for your bucks.  I imagine a lot of the cases in your article involve cheapskate clients not willing to pay the going rate hence the audit firms arent going to push the barrel out and search every nook and cranny especially relevant when people who are committing fraud generally try and hide it.

Thinking about all the comments on litigation, the firms of course are going to try and protect their people because these are Partnerships not limited companies !!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course you are only going to get what you pay for.  The Firms work by the hour.  The client pays for a certain number of hours and if the client is a cheapskate then you arent going to get many hours for your bucks.  I imagine a lot of the cases in your article involve cheapskate clients not willing to pay the going rate hence the audit firms arent going to push the barrel out and search every nook and cranny especially relevant when people who are committing fraud generally try and hide it.</p>
<p>Thinking about all the comments on litigation, the firms of course are going to try and protect their people because these are Partnerships not limited companies !!</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-91926</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-91926</guid>
		<description>Three difficulties the CPA firms will face with the Madoff feeder fund cases are: 

(1) The CPA firms can&#039;t argue that the feeder funds failed because of business conditions and subsequent events that couldn&#039;t have been anticipated by the auditors.

(2) Markapolous&#039; book makes it clear that a lot of people on Wall Street who never even looked at Madoff&#039;s books did not believe his returns. In other words, his consistent performance should have raised red flags to anyone who knew anything about the business of securities trading. There is no way any trader makes a profit month after month. Markapolous reveals that a lot of Wall Streeters thought that Madoff&#039;s consistent performance resulted from earnings smoothing and that he was subsidizing his bad periods by taking funds he earned in his good periods. 

(3) The investors might not have believed the returns if the CPA firms hadn&#039;t signed off on their statements. 

That being said, I think the feeder fund investors will have to settle for pennies on the dollar from the CPA firms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three difficulties the CPA firms will face with the Madoff feeder fund cases are: </p>
<p>(1) The CPA firms can&#8217;t argue that the feeder funds failed because of business conditions and subsequent events that couldn&#8217;t have been anticipated by the auditors.</p>
<p>(2) Markapolous&#8217; book makes it clear that a lot of people on Wall Street who never even looked at Madoff&#8217;s books did not believe his returns. In other words, his consistent performance should have raised red flags to anyone who knew anything about the business of securities trading. There is no way any trader makes a profit month after month. Markapolous reveals that a lot of Wall Streeters thought that Madoff&#8217;s consistent performance resulted from earnings smoothing and that he was subsidizing his bad periods by taking funds he earned in his good periods. </p>
<p>(3) The investors might not have believed the returns if the CPA firms hadn&#8217;t signed off on their statements. </p>
<p>That being said, I think the feeder fund investors will have to settle for pennies on the dollar from the CPA firms.</p>
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		<title>By: PD</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-91805</link>
		<dc:creator>PD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-91805</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the answer?  Eliminate the requirement for an independent audit?  Or, require the auditors to be 100% independent; that is, prohibit them from doing any other work with a company other than the independent audit?  Companies look at the independent audit as a necessary nuisance, similar to a colonoscopy for a middle-aged male, and price it like that.  If we expect the auditors to find every problem, then there needs to be a huge change in how things are done.  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the answer?  Eliminate the requirement for an independent audit?  Or, require the auditors to be 100% independent; that is, prohibit them from doing any other work with a company other than the independent audit?  Companies look at the independent audit as a necessary nuisance, similar to a colonoscopy for a middle-aged male, and price it like that.  If we expect the auditors to find every problem, then there needs to be a huge change in how things are done.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s likely.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Rezko</title>
		<link>http://retheauditors.com/2010/03/02/send-lawyers-guns-and-money-the-big-4-and-their-litigation/comment-page-1/#comment-91775</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Rezko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 16:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://retheauditors.com/?p=4366#comment-91775</guid>
		<description>I would agree that these suits won&#039;t put the firms completely out of business, but that isn&#039;t the point necessarily. These cases will likely lead to changes in the Big 4. We&#039;re reaching a critical mass here - increased lawsuits (and corresponding &#039;emergency&#039; reserves); regulators going after partners and (gulp) audit managers; and most important, in my opinion, the questioning of our ability to keep our own people compliant in both personal ethics and competency. 

This may lead to more regulation from a grandstanding congress, not all of which results in higher audit fees like Sarbanes. But even if it doesn&#039;t hit the public radar, it will make life harder for the majority of accountants doing these audits, because making partners wealthy becomes even more difficult, with growing legal bills for our foul-ups. Add to this the reluctancy to pay seniors and managers, and the addition of more &quot;check in the box&quot; crap for the audit file that gives a perception, but not necessarily the reality of a better audit, and I think audit quality overall is bound to suffer. 

Staying in business is great, but if our product deteriorates, that should concern everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree that these suits won&#8217;t put the firms completely out of business, but that isn&#8217;t the point necessarily. These cases will likely lead to changes in the Big 4. We&#8217;re reaching a critical mass here &#8211; increased lawsuits (and corresponding &#8216;emergency&#8217; reserves); regulators going after partners and (gulp) audit managers; and most important, in my opinion, the questioning of our ability to keep our own people compliant in both personal ethics and competency. </p>
<p>This may lead to more regulation from a grandstanding congress, not all of which results in higher audit fees like Sarbanes. But even if it doesn&#8217;t hit the public radar, it will make life harder for the majority of accountants doing these audits, because making partners wealthy becomes even more difficult, with growing legal bills for our foul-ups. Add to this the reluctancy to pay seniors and managers, and the addition of more &#8220;check in the box&#8221; crap for the audit file that gives a perception, but not necessarily the reality of a better audit, and I think audit quality overall is bound to suffer. </p>
<p>Staying in business is great, but if our product deteriorates, that should concern everyone.</p>
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